Tag: Heaven (page 2 of 2)

Salvation After Death

Trish S – Question regarding Judgement Day: In thinking about all the folks past/present/&to come…when folks die, don’t they still have an opportunity to profess Jesus as our Lord/Savior right up to that final judging moment? (like Herod… If he comes to claim Jesus @ the final judgement, wouldn’t his fate be overturned from Hell to Heaven?

Dave to Trish S – Hey Trish, good question. I don’t see Scripture supporting the chance of salvation after death, especially considering Hebrews 9:27 which says, “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.” The only one that some people have interpreted as a chance for a second chance is in 1 Peter 3:18-20:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

However, I do not believe this means that departed souls from Noah’s time had Jesus literally in front of them preaching His Gospel and giving them a chance to get saved. I think it means that the “Spirit of Christ” (the Holy Spirit) was preaching through Noah while those folks were still alive. This continued perhaps for as long as 100 years since that is how long it took Noah to build that Ark. Furthermore, that Ark represented salvation (Jesus) for those people.

When people read “spirits in prison,” they conclude that Jesus descended into Hell or Hades and preached the Gospel there after He died and before He ascended into Heaven. But this is not what those verses are saying.

When one thinks about the chances people have to hear and accept the Gospel, heads start spinning. It is clear that not all have the same opportunities throughout history. The only thing I can say for sure is that the kind of judgment received does depend upon how much truth individuals were exposed to (Luke 10:12 & 14). To critics who raise this question, I always say that we do not know everything, but we do know that God is good, not ever fooled, just, and does not make mistakes. Finally, no matter where a person is born into in this life, they can always seek God and find Him if they are willing to obey Him (John 7:17).

But what happens to little babies or young children who die? When David’s son born from his illicit affair with Bathsheba died, David proclaimed that the boy would not return to him but that he (David) would go to him (after his death). This may reveal that little ones are spared the Lake of Fire, but the bottom line is that we do not know. The critic should be made aware that they have heard of Jesus and are therefore responsible to seek what He has said.

Feedback so far:

Nels F – (5/27/13) – Very interesting- learned a lot from this question and answer thanks!

Tom H – (5/27/13) – This was a tough one and I appreciate your willingness to tackle it. There is a resurgence of “universalism” ala the Rob Bell book “Love Wins,” which is saying that salvation is for all but it may take time after their death for them to finally decide to accept God’s salvation through Christ. I don’t believe this, but it is a big question among younger people (at least the generation after you and me) right now. Francis Chan has very caringly, effectively and biblically addressed this in his recent book entitled “Erasing Hell.” I suggest it as a must read. The point of ministering to spirits in prison, I think, is those who died awaiting the coming of the Holy One. I believe that Jesus’ death set them free as indicated in the gospel account that says that not only was the veil torn in two but that tombs opened up and dead rose and entered the Holy City. I don’t think this means they walked into the earthly Jerusalem, but likely the New Jerusalem.

GR – Excellent work.

Good People and Hell

Trish S – I have always questioned the belief that folks who may have little exposure to Jesus but are “good” people will spend eternity in Hell. Perhaps this comes from my Roman Catholic background!

Dave – It’s not just Roman Catholicism but most Christian churches believe that Hell is everlasting torment for all who do not believe in Jesus (born-again). I noticed you put the word “good” in quotation marks which is good because no one born of Adam’s seed is good. All humans, except Jesus of course, are the “walking dead” until they are born-again in Christ. That said, one has to wonder about little kids or babies (including those aborted in utero) who die. None of these humans could even begin to understand salvation’s terms. I think the safe answer is that we do not know but God is just and perfect in all judgments He makes. Perhaps the criterion is different for humans who die at an older age because they had the chance of seeking the Truth. God promises humans that they will find the Truth if the seek it. I maintain, however, that simply seeking truth (small “t” on truth) does not necessarily cut it because the condition of the individual’s heart may not be pure. By pure, I mean they have a willingness to do God’s will as Jesus said in John 7:17. There are many truths found in various philosophies, but adhering to them does not cause one’s sins to be forgiven.

Jewish tradition has this thing called the “age of accountability” which holds that a child’s sins are on the parents’ soul, but from age 13 on they are not. It assumes that before this age is reached, the child is without sin and if he/she dies within this time frame, they go to Heaven. So this would be a sudden shift of guilt and blame based on a time clock. It is not found anywhere in the Scriptures.

We do know that some will receive harsher punishment than others based on what they rejected on earth. For example, those who rejected Jesus are in the most trouble. But what about a person who has never been exposed to the Gospel and dies? This is a tough one. We don’t like the idea that this soul will be thrown on the Lake of Fire, whether or not it is eternal suffering or a literal second death as the Scriptures say it is. Jesus spoke of separating the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the chaff. He said the chaff does get thrown into a fire. Wheat does represent saved souls and chaff does represent unsaved souls. It seems to me that any soul not redeemed by God’s Blood cannot have eternal life…but eternal torment for human souls is extremely difficult for me to accept, whether or not it is accurate. It makes more sense to me that Hell for human souls is the second death. Death means death, or going out of existence. This belief, of course, is a serious error to most Christians, so I would never teach it although the possibility of it being true does rest in my mind.

Some Christians feel if this “error” is taught then concern for the lost would be diminished. I would argue that the Lake of Fire is still a horrible, frightening fate and therefore we all need to get the Gospel out to others.

God Knows All

Tim: Though God is generally described as all-knowing – does He always choose to know how things will turn out? I sometimes compare the concept to a person reading a book – one can turn the last page and see how things wrap up – but do you want to? Did/does God choose to wait to see how humans will respond sometimes – instead of just instantly knowing the future? Will Adam and Eve sin – will Moses strike the rock – will Lot’s wife turn back to look, will Judas betray Jesus …?

Dave: Thanks for your question about God, time, and His awareness of time. Time is weird, but the Scriptures do give us some glimpses into your questions. I am not sure if I view heaven as being timeless. The Bible speaks of God setting certain things to happen at pre-ordained times, for example, the first coming of Christ, the torment of demons, the Second Coming of Christ, and the Final Judgment. all those dates the Father has chosen, and they were (are) locked in. We also find in Scripture that sometimes God delays His original plan, for example, Hezekiah’s death was delayed 15 years and God was prepared to destroy Israelites several times, but Moses persuaded Him to postpone.

I believe God knows all the future because He, unlike us, is not bound by time. Scripture says that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to Him. But I’ve always maintained that just because He sees the future, He does not necessarily CAUSE all the events in that future. I believe it is similar to a human foreseeing the future but does not make whatever happen. God certainly has intervened many times on mankind’s behalf throughout all of history, so He definitely MAKES some things happen, but I do not think all things are forced upon us.

God knew that Adam and Eve would die if they sinned, but I do not view God making them die. Rather, I see it as a natural progression much like a tumbling “domino effect.” Once that first domino goes over, the rest will follow. Could God intervene and stop it? Yes, but that would hurt us in the long run (see parable from Matthew 13:29). God sees the need to have a sinful world play itself out to its end which is a fixed time. Why does it need to play out? Probably to prepare His Bride (all believers from history) and to maximize the quality of the Eternal Kingdom. I think of an unsaved soul living a typical self-centered life. That soul needed to experience sin and its effects before he/she could “see the Light.” If God presented Himself prematurely to us, we may not have been able to repent and take in Jesus to our souls. The old saying is right – “Timing is everything!”

Yes, I believe God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. There is no hint that anything has ever taken Him by surprise. Jesus marveled at the centurion’s faith. but the Son of Man was God limiting Himself to time and space. Back in Genesis, God had the temporary remedy prepared quite quickly – an innocent animal was slain and its skin covered human nakedness (sin). It was a foretaste of His Final Solution performed by Christ on the Cross where innocent blood was once again shed. Mankind quickly learned that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin (Hebrews 9:22). But Jesus’ Blood has much more power than animal blood, obviously.

Yes, He knew that Judas would betray Jesus because it was prophesied in the Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12-13; Psalms 109:8; and Psalm 41:9). These were verified by the New Testament writers. Again, I don’t think that God made Judas do it, but He did know it would happen.

So even though God knows all, I think we, as a fallen race, need to experience life and see it played out before our eyes in order to seek (grope) for the Truth and find it before we perish. In Acts 17: 26-27 reveals much on this issue – “…and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.”

Your question on whether or not God chooses to know certain things is a tough one. Scripture tells us He chooses to forget our sins. I’m not sure if this is to be interpreted literally or figuratively. If the latter, it simply means that He will never hold anything against us or remind us of what we were like in the sinful state. This makes me wonder if we will remember. Isaiah 25:8 says that God will remove our reproach, so my guess is that we might remember but no longer have the shame connected with it. All our tears will be wiped away!

We do know from Scripture that the angels do not see ahead like God does (1 Peter1:12). I’ve pictured angels as excited and loving servants. Excited because they know how good everything will turn out, they just don’t know how God will accomplish it. They are loving because they did not follow Lucifer’s rebellion. Just my opinion on this part.

Well, I hope I’ve covered all your issues within this topic.

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